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The_Bishop wrote:
Sometimes I play Risk, sometimes I play Chess, and this is my life...

I think Risk is one of the most funny and engaging board games, but speaking about strategy, Chess is at a higher level and there is no luck involved. Unfortunatley is a game for 2 players only. I cannot say if it can be called a game, because Chess hurts like a real fight, in comparison Risk is much more like a friendly game. I heard once one saying that Chess is a very violent game, in comparison boxing is a game of concentration. But sometimes I get bored and I come back to Risk which give me the pleasure to play with unpredictable elements such as dice and opponents' moves. And really I am better at Risk than Chess. But the use of long term games here at D12 give me the idea to try out "correspondence chess" which I am playing in a specific site with the timer set at 3 days per move, and it is not bad really, I can play better games doing deeper analyzes.

If like I can share my last game in progress. You need to know the algebraic notation to understand it. But I added some images to make it easier. I got the White pieces.

[image]

1. e4 e6
2. d4 a6
3. Bd3 b5
4. Nf3 Bb7
5. a4 b4
6. O-O a5
Non-conventional opening by my opponents. Let see how he's going to play it.

[image]

7. c3 c5
8. Be3 Nf6
9. Nbd2 h6
10. e5 Nd5
11. c4 Nxe3
12. fxe3 Qb6
I felt pretty confident at that stage. All my pieces are developed and my King is in safe position. My opponent still had one kNight and one Bishop in the starting place and his King not castled yet.

[image]

13. d5 exd5
14. cxd5 Bxd5
15. Nc4 Qe6
16. Qe2 Nc6
17. Nb6 Nxe5
18. Nxa8 Nxf3+
Here probably the most funny action of the whole game with an interesting change of pieces.
As you can see, starting from now it's a war with different weapons: I have one Rook more, but one Bishop and 2 pawns less.

[image]

19. Rxf3 Bxa8
20. Rf2 Bd6
21. e4 O-O
22. Raf1 Be5
23. Bc4 d5
24. exd5 Bxd5

Finally my opponents reached a good development of his pieces in spite of his debatable opening. Probably I missed something, I guess I could do something more aggressive to stop him. I'm going to change my last Bishop and I am glad with this.

[image]

25. Bxd5 Qxd5
26. Rf3 Bd4+
27. Kh1 Qh5
28. Qc4 Bxb2
29. Rf5 g5
30. Rxc5 Re8

One Rook for one Bishop and 2 pawns is usually considered equal material. But much depends on how active that Bishop is. If I can achieve to block it in a non-useful position probably I have good chance to win the game. Unfortunately looks like his Bishop's moving pretty well.

[image]

But I think he missed something in the last moves and here I am going to win a pawn with Rxa5. A little pawn that make me much more confident, if I am not sure to win from this position at least I am almost sure not to lose.

Perhaps I may also ignore the pawn and go for something more aggressive like Rc8. I don't know exactly. What do you suggest guys?
«God doesn't play dice with the World» ~ Albert Einstein
momagajic wrote:
28.Qc4 -better Qb4 ,on that way protecting square E8 where rook just come ;) so ,my connection is too bad and cant open picture for position and i make it for you on board ;) hmm ,lets see his idea can be developing bischop on E5 (danger is mate on H2!!) ,mistake is defend whit G3 ,that is trap he sacrifice bicshop and you are in verry big trouble to protect mate i belive ..So you must play more agresive now ,exenge rooks on c8 going to Remi.!but there is one pretty cool combination what i see !
momagajic wrote:
To play pawn g4 ! then he must mowe queen on g6 sounds like only logical move ,then you can choose two continuations ,firs one is to play rook c6 ,more pressure on position and quenn ,he moved agean Qg7 or Qh7 ,no other solutions for him ,jumped in forced position ..next is use pawn on h6 ,(sounds like sacriface rook for pawn but not ,if he eat that ,then you use it on f7 !and easy shot ,i belive he dont do that ..,other option is to not use that pawn ,then play rook on C7 more pressure on critical F7 spot !,he must protect that only whit rook on f8 ,then you got a time to play rook from c7 to a7 and use that pawn in more comfortable possition for you ,he is locked there till to move his king from that diagonal from queen on c4 !he do that and you use that pawn on a A5 whit rook ,then hee need to protect pawn on b4 ,probably whit move bischop on c3 !If you got this possition you play rook from a 5 to f5 agean dont give rest to him …all strategy is based then on moving A pawn ,then you do simply manevar whit queen on D5 and you beat him easy  ;)Oh i forget if he play after rook f5 ,a pawn on f6 to block that line then imeditly come queen on C6 to protect his coming Qb7 whit tempo move chess.and rook line on e8.thats all ,need only litlle technick for winning ,then goes position playing self..good luck,i think you need check this position
momagajic wrote:
after 31.g4 : Qg6   32.Rc6  :  Qg7  33.Rh6(eat pawn !) !!!  maybe rook for excange on e1 ,(thats a mate in move simply you play queen oon c8 !, let see what he can do else …no matter too complicated maybe is not good to open that h line for him ,that position can be played hawe a lot tricky traps but dont loose yourself in too much complications ,this variation whit Rook C6 and rook c7 manevar is much simplyer and easyer for play ..just chain him there and build position for you ;)
momagajic wrote:
Imediatly rook on c7 can also after his bischop e5 exenge on f7 but that is good for him ,whit g4 first not good for black ,you going to killing him softly for sure and easyly ;) Like great Capablanka ;) just be carefuel whit moves everything must be in order ..good luck ,and put position agean when you make a couple of moves
momagajic wrote:
i miss something ,,,on rc6 he can exchange queens on e4…then you need play rook from c file to f5 ,and he can protect f7 simply rook e7 and nothing changes ,to me look like you r oponent using some help from chess program ,he made every move so preciously …im afraid you going to loose this one ..this position is fully of tricky moves ,on first look we think that is hard to loose whit white pieces but i make analyse so long and deep and i really dont see any good continuing for you ,hard fight for remi ..
The_Bishop wrote:
@Momagajic - Wow! Thanks for your deep analysis Moma, I'm going to re-read it better because now I have not such time, I'm in the launch break.

@Emjaydee - Yes very interesting! I like chess but I am not such a talent and at boxing I'm under zero, since it doesn't look my optimal sport...

Maybe we should try something like Skating Risk! :D
«God doesn't play dice with the World» ~ Albert Einstein
momagajic wrote:
You hawe right ,now me and my old friend (he is chessmaster ) make some analyze ,actualy he see in 2 minuts that ,use it on ra5,and then simply return rc5 and idea is change rooks on c8 and easy win for you …pushing a free pawn on A file ...
The_Bishop wrote:
28.Qc4 was to keep the threat and the pin on the f7 pawn. And I cannot see what is the big danger of black Rook in e8 really. I'm not sure 28.Qb5 was better, by the way once the game will be finished I will request for a powered engine analysis.

31.g4 seems a very nice one! I missed it. All your first analysis looks pretty accurate or at least I have to trust you because I am not able to analyze the game so fast. Then you also found other possible variations. That's why I like correspondence chess, you study the position and study it again and you always found something new that you had missed. Lot of variations that you usually don't see in live games.

I don't think my opponents is using computer programs (at least I hope not so!!). I assume his moves look so precious at your eyes because you are not considering this game is 3 days per move, that's a lot of time. For every good move you can find, then you can also find a good counter-move for your opponent. And then among several possibilities you decide what you think it's best. And your opponent does the same...

Of course I saw his threat of mate in h2, easy to see and easy to stop really. And I also saw my possible pseudo-sacrifice with Rook taking pawn in h6 and it is what I am going to do.

In any case my move was 31.Rxa5, I don't know if it is the best move but I don't think I can lose with 2 pawns up. Really I lied when I asked for suggestions because the game was already at the 35th move when I posted it. I wouldn't be happy to win thanks to someone telling me what move to do!!

I wanted just to verify if there is some good chess players here at D12, and really it looks like we have one! In any case thanks for your helping suggestion Moma! And seeing that you are so interested I will surely post the continuation of the game as soon as I have the next 6 moves. Stay tuned ;)
«God doesn't play dice with the World» ~ Albert Einstein
The_Bishop wrote:
EDIT: Well, then I am happy your chessmaster friend agreed with me on the capture of the a5 pawn :)
«God doesn't play dice with the World» ~ Albert Einstein
Matty wrote:
I'll admit right away that I'm terribly bad at chess.
I also kind of agree that chess is probably a lot harder than risk is.

I wonder however whether that is true for AI's - computers have beaten humans pretty much at chess. I'm very unsure of whether there is a risk AI that can compete in the D12 game though.
"Strength doesn't lie in numbers, strength doesn't lie in wealth. Strength lies in nights of peaceful slumbers." ~Maria
The_Bishop wrote:
Oh, that's another very interesting subject! There are games that are easy for computers but relatively hard for humans (ex. backgammon) because computers can analyze all the cases and play perfectly; and there are games that are hard for computer but relatively easy for humans (ex. arimaa), because computers cannot analyze all the cases: the tree of possible moves is too large and sometimes they really don't know what to do!

Chess basically is in the second category. The first chess program attempts were disastrous. Then some decent result occurred. Even if they could easy beat amateur players -- because of high tactical level of playing; but still they could not beat professional players -- because totally lacking in strategy.

The first chess engine beating a world chess champion was the IBM Deep Blue in 1997, challenging Garry Kasparov. And he was pretty confident not to lose and stated <<the engine is stupid, it cannot win>>; unfortunately the result was different. Kasparov won the first game of the challenge without a great effort, but starting from the second game Deep Blue revealed to be much smarter than expected. Really at the end of that game Kasparov covertly declared that IBM cheated and Deep Blue received some human helps ("the hand of God" ). Many elements make me think he was right.

In any case starting from that far event, lot of interest and development come on chess programs, so that nowadays even programs for "domestic use" are really strong and they can easy find that move that Kasparov could not believe to be possible for a computer. But still in some points they are a bit lacking, especially the game endings -- at least it was so till some years ago, nowadays probably not anymore. And still nobody solved the game creating an AI which is able to always do THE best move and never lose.

As for Risk programs, I think there is much less development. The only strong program that I know is Vexer's Bot at Turbo Risk and I have to admit it is not bad, I mean it plays pretty well. I think even if in Risk the possible moves are too many -- especially when the number of players is high -- but still you can define a sort of universal method. Even if not perfect it can give good results for the most of the cases and little by little the method can be improved more and more adding new parameters.

But also in this case I cannot think to an AI that always made THE best move, especially because there are some psychological features involved in the game that I find hard to teach to a computer program.
«God doesn't play dice with the World» ~ Albert Einstein
Matty wrote:
Oh Vexer (the bot - it is named Vexer as well) is playing alright, but once you know what he does he's really easy to beat.

Becomes a bit harder with multiple Vexers (the bot) but still relatively easy compared to Vexer (the human).


I only know Turborisk though, not sure how good the AI's from Risk II are.
(I played it as a kid, but never really serious. Apart from that, it has weird turn in rules.)
"Strength doesn't lie in numbers, strength doesn't lie in wealth. Strength lies in nights of peaceful slumbers." ~Maria
The_Bishop wrote:
I anticipated some details since I'm going to reveal the game continuation:

31. Rxa5 Be5
32. h3 Bc3
33. Kh2?! Qg6
34. Ra6 Qg7?!
35. Rxh6

I will not reveal the very last moves, because I don't want to receive any kind of help but still you can leave general comments and your impression if you want. Please Moma don't give specific suggestions.

34...Qg7 gave me another pawn since as I said I am now 2 pawns up but I am not sure 33.Kh2 was a good move, because now my King is very exposed on the dark diagonal where I can receive check from black Bishop or black Queen either.

Plus he got a pawn pretty advanced for Queen promotion, protected by the Bishop, and I don't know exactly how to stop him there because I cannot change his Bishop with an equal piece. Eventually I will be forced to change my Rook losing my material advantage in order to remove that annoying pawn.

I don't know... I think I am not in excellent position now.
«God doesn't play dice with the World» ~ Albert Einstein